This build requires a minimum Paladin level of 2, and the first level should be taken in Paladin. This character is primarily considered a melee character to utilize the strength-based abilities of the Paladin (including smite) and heavy armor. Charisma is a highly favored ability score, since both Paladin and Warlock spells and abilities use this score. Constitution, as usual, is extremely important for survival. At level 3 and further, levels should be put in Warlock, taking melee option abilities as you level.
The core abilities of this build are:
- Divine Smite - Deal an extra 2d8 radiant damage on a melee hit and +1d8 against fiends/undead when you expend a spell slot.
- Warlocks regain all spell slots during a short rest.
The strategy:
- As often as possible, utilize Divine Smite on hits to increase melee power - which can be then replenished during a short rest.
The weakness:
- Although few monsters are resistant to radiant, this build focuses on radiant damage. Explore alternative damage sources for backup.
- This build is mainly suited for single target damage, facing multiple enemies can pose a problem. If you have access to Sword Coast Adventures book, use the Green Flame cantrip to increase your AoE potential without sacrificing your spell slots on AoE spells.
For many levels Warlock is granted only two spell slots, limiting the number of Divine Smite's per encounter. However, the damage for each Divine Smite increases as the Warlock levels since the effective spell level increases - cappng at 5d8 radiant damage at Warlock level 9. One thing to note is, if you decide to level both Paladin and Warlock, the levels do not stack for effective caster level (ie. Paladin 6/Warlock 6 gives effective caster level of 3, not 9 - but you can still cast spells with an effective spell level of 3 with Pact Magic, using Warlock spell slots instead of Paladin spell slots). Therefore, how you build this warlock should be consistent with the role you wish to fulfill.
Powerful additions to this build:
- Going the full melee powerhouse with a two-handed sword, great weapon fighting (fighting style), great weapon master (feat), savage attacks (feat), with Oath of Vengeance with Vow of Enmity and Life Drinker (Pact of the Blade Invocation) - in total requiring a minimum of Paladin 3/ Warlock 12 for massive burst damage potential.
- Warlock abilities that maximize your tenacity are: Fiend Patron (Dark One's Blessing, Fiendish Resistance), Fiendish Vigor (invocation), and Armor of Agathys (spell).
Paladin and Warlock combined together may or may not turn the Dungeon Master's (DM's) stomach a bit. This is because many DM's prefer the Good only Paladin dogma, so it's worth talking to your DM to see his point of view on the matter and try and come up with a compromise. One thematic synergy that can be made is the Oath of the Ancients and the Fey Patron to create a sort of 'Nature's Warden' type of character. This Nature Warden build allows you to focus on a particular theme while still using the Divine Smite combo, and also giving you great crowd control options.
Below is the damage scale comparison between a Battle Master Fighter, two-weapon Rogue, and the Corrupted Paladin. All builds considering optimized build for single target damage. The y-axis represents damage, and the x-axis represents levels. Green = maximum damage, Red = Average damage and Blue = Minimum Damage.
Below is the damage scale comparison between a Battle Master Fighter, two-weapon Rogue, and the Corrupted Paladin. All builds considering optimized build for single target damage. The y-axis represents damage, and the x-axis represents levels. Green = maximum damage, Red = Average damage and Blue = Minimum Damage.
Corrupted Paladin
Battle Master Fighter
Two-weapon Rogue
Like the build? have your own additions to the build?
For the Oath of Vengeance/Fiend build, you could tie them together thematically by choosing Tiefling for your race, with a Noble background, explaining that your character is a descendant of a Devil of some power, who is grooming your character to help him take (or retake) some rank or position in Hell.
ReplyDeleteHi there JPitre,
Deletesorry about the delayed response. I would agree to your argument and it sounds like a very dynamic and interesting character. My immediate question would be: How does your character feel about this grooming? Just being mindful of having to upkeep your vows as a Vengeance paladin (in this case being: Fight the Greater Evil, No Mercy for the Wicked, By Any Means Necessary, and Restitution).
I'm looking at a vengeance paladin polearm master who makes a deal to empower her further to fulfill her oath (which spreads from vs. one very bad guy to an entire trafficking organization). I like it thematically, but wonder if giving up sticky polearm and sentinel feat is worth doubling down on greatsword spike damage of this build. Still new to DnD and I wonder if I would be an absolute mess with multiple attackers on the Corrupted Paladin vs being able to poke/slow many of them for free with pole arm.
ReplyDeleteHi Sunshine!
DeleteI think the polearm option is decent and gives the build a bit more diversity and definitely not a bad idea. I think ultimately it will depend on your party composition to see if its worth it. If your group is lacking a true tank, this would be a great option as it might keep some baddies at a distance, but if your group really needs that burst single target damage, then you might want to stick to the more damage-style options.
As with facing multiple enemies the polearm option does help somewhat, although you can only use your reaction once per round (it costs a reaction to make an attack of opportunity).
Gonna be rolling a character like this if and likely when (knowing my GM) my Druid dies. Gonna be like a Darth Vader character, where The Fiend is his Sith Master and he practices a "Dark Power" learnt from his Master, basically try and play off the Mutliclassing as its own Class as a whole instead of 2 separate classes. Acolyte Background, so he was part of a "Dark Temple". Fueled by hate and ferocity, but have that tempered by a strong code of honour so he doesn't just kill everyone.
ReplyDeleteHaving a hard time thinking up a work around for the Tenants for Oath of Vengeance. Especially the "Fight the Greater Evil" tenant because one would suppose The Fiend patron would fall under that "greater evil" and the "Restitution" Tenant, seeing as how The Fiend patron would eventually become a source of "foes [wreaking] ruin on the world".
Hi Chris! cool idea!
DeleteJust as a thought, maybe with the "Fight the Greater Evil" tenant you are building your power to eventually defeat your fiendish master. Such is often the case with sith lords and such.
Great character dynamics you have so far! good luck!
Divine smite RAW: "you can expend one PALADIN spell to deal radiant damage." Still a cool multiclass idea-- building one now, but the spell economy you're banking on won't work with a DM who reads rules.
ReplyDeleteAlso should add that Warlock's spell-refresh feature only refreshes warlock spell slots. Not paladin. So you also can't refresh paladin slots on a short rest with this build.
DeleteThank you for commenting avmercier83,
DeleteThis is something that came up in one of our campaigns as well, and thank you for sparking a discussion about this here. I'd like to show the two arguments we talked about when discussing this issue.
=Spell slots gained separately when multiclassing for abilities=
As you mentioned, it clearly states that Divine smite uses paladin spells *slots* to deal damage with divine smite. Meaning at maximum you can deal is 5d8 radiant damage once (as a pure paladin at level 17). Spending only the spell slots available as per your current paladin level.
When multi-classing, you determine how many spell slots you have through paladin and can only use divine smite using those spell slots, regardless of levels in other spellcasting classes. For example a 10 Paladin/ 3 Cleric could use smite twice by spending a level 3 spell slot, but cannot spend level 4 spell slots even though it has access to those spell slots through multiclassing (similarly with pact magic).
This further implies that abilities that specify that you use a spell slot, must use spell slots that you've gained in that class.
=Spell slots are added together=
If you look at the entry in the Customization options (Chapter 6) on page 164 it mentions that spellcasting classes are added together to determine spell slots of your character. Implying that spell slots are shared, but the spells known/prepared and the spell casting abilities associated with them are not.
If you look further under 'Pact Magic' that "you can use the spell slots you gain from the Pact Magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting class feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting feature to cast warlock spells you know.".
Meaning you can cast your Paladin spells using warlock spell slots, and vice versa. And although this doesn't specifically say that you can use the warlock spell slots as paladin spell slots (and vice versa) for abilities, many would probably assume this if your going for the generalization that the spell slots are all added together and Warlock spell slots are just 'added spell slots'.
Alternatively, you could also argue that spell slots that are gained through spellcasting are added together (for paladin, cleric, etc,) for the use of abilities, but pact magic is not (since its not the spellcasting feature).
The points is that the spell slot mechanic gets complicated when you start multiclassing. So its good to talk to everyone involved in the campaign so there is some sort of consensus to how the rules should go, if its a big concern.
I also mentioned that it might also be an aesthetic problem for a DM. If you think about it, why would the magic gained from a fiend power your ability to divine smite (if you took the fiend otherwordly patron)? On the other side of the coin you could argue with that: why wouldn't the magic gained from your archfey patron power your ability to divine smite (if you took the archfey/oath of ancients)? You could answer that its because the spell/abilities gained through paladin is your personal devotion and the spells/abilities gained through warlock is the gifts of your patron - even if its for a similar cause they're two different sources. That's not always a satisfactory answer to a Player who has a cool multiclassing idea.
Really it all comes down to how you and your friends play D&D, as always.
All the best!
By errata and official response you can use any spell slots for Smite.
Deletehttps://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/56889/if-i-multiclass-into-paladin-can-i-use-up-any-classs-spell-slots-for-divine-sm/67587#67587
Hi DancingWarPanda!
DeleteThank you for the clarification there!
Also the problem with assuming by having warlock you refresh all slots including non pact magic spell casting would mean that Warlock is now the ultimate dip class, meaning every wizard or sorc build should have at least one level of warlock to refresh all of their superior spell casting every short rest.
DeleteI feel like wizards assumed the difference between pact and spellcasting to be apparent, otherwise that's a pretty glaring oversight.
Hi Bobby!
DeleteI agree with you that there is a big difference between pact magic and spellcasting. Warlocks can only recover pact magic spell slots using a short rest, not spellcasting spell slots - but they can cast *spells* gained from spellcasting using their pact magic spell slots! :)
Well yea, that part's clear, but doesn't that kind of ruin the core piece of mechanical leverage behind this character though? Since you start out the day with 6 slots for smiting but after using them up be down to 3 smites possible per short rest for the duration of the day?
DeleteWell the power of this mechanic (compared to other abilities that refresh on a short or long rest) is somewhat dependent on how frequently your party takes short rests (as are all these abilities). But, if you take even 1 short rest per day and use the ability often then you're getting an extra 3 uses (at maximum warlock spell level), which is quite good since you would then get a potential 9 smites in a day.
Delete9 smites a day is a lot since you do not have to make an attack roll for the damage, and damage is only reduced if the enemy is resistant to radiant damage.
Does this answer your question Bobby?
Thanks for commenting :)
Yea, I mean it's still good, it just appeared from the initial onset that the whole spell slot recovery thing was being viewed otherwise, which would of made this character much more bananas (and of course, the implications for other character builds dipping warlock would of been stupid) :)
DeleteI can testify that this build is extremely powerful just from the short rest smites alone. One caveat...please build a fully realized character and not a gimmick, otherwise you will quickly become bored.
DeleteI'm making a paladin of Mephistopheles (very lawful and not super evil. More of a classic Devil type expediting the process of sending evildoers to hell to do his master's bidding, occasionally getting a specific target that hasn't payed Mephistopheles what he/she owes) and looking into this Oath of Vengeance/Fiend Warlock polearm idea. It looks pretty awesome as what my group needs is some tanking and single target damage. If I go human and pick Polearm Master as the bonus feat I am going to be getting a second attack at 1d4 which will also be able to benefit from Hex and Strength bonus, as well as a very likely attack of opportunity at another 1d10 + strength and hex. I would argue that Polearm Mastery would lead to greater single target damage than GWM with a great sword. Am I wrong?
ReplyDeleteHey there
ReplyDeleteThis is a great question. Really, I think you could go either way and not see too much difference. However, let's indulge your question a bit deeper and come up with a semi-objective conclusion.
So the question is: Vs single targets which would be more powerful, polearm mastery or great weapon fighting?
Perhaps we can tackle this question by viewing these abilities by their average damage. We can adjust the average damage if there is a attack modifier (as in GWM), since on average the attack will happen less often. First of all lets make the assumption that both paths (Polearm vs GWM) have chosen the same race/class combos, abilities, spells, modifiers, etc. and as well as there is a 50% chance to hit the creature. So each path has the same attack/damage modifiers going in.
Weapons
Polearm -> 1d10, average = 5.5
GWM -> 2d6, average = 3.5 + 3.5 = 7
Great weapon fighting - how often does the die land on 1 or 2? this happens more often with 2d6 than 1d10 so the average damage increases in both, but more in 2d6. What are the increases to the average damage?
Polearm
(5.5 avg*0.33 chance) + 5.5 average = 7.2 average damage
GWM
((3.5 avg*0.33 chance) + 3.5 average) + ((3.5 avg*0.33) + 3.5) = 9.31 average damage
Not surprisingly GWM gets a better benefit from Great weapon fighting ability... Now lets add hex to the mix. This increases the average damage of both by 3.5
Polearm = 10.7
GWM = 12.81
Now the tricky one, adding in the feats. Since Polearm mastery gives you an extra attack at the cost of a bonus action, it scales up as you gain a damage modifier, from magic/str. GWM gives an increase to damage at the cost of chance to hit. So how does this affect the average damage of each...
Polearm - each additional modifier is doubled; however since we'ere including number of attacks we have are assuming that each attack has a 50% chance to hit the creature.
0 modifier -> 10.5 + ((2.5 + 3.5)*.5) = 13.5
1 modifier -> 10.5 + 3 + 2 = 15.5
2 modifier -> 10.5 + 3 + 4 = 17.5
3 modifier -> 19.5
4 modifier -> 21.5..
GWM the average damage is lowered from the chance to hit but has a big bonus to attack. A modifier of 1 is roughly equivalent to 5% chance to hit.
12.81 + 10 - (12.81*0.25) = 19.6
So on average, yes I would agree that Polearm Master has the potential to do more single target damage than GWM, using hex, provided that you have a healthy 18+ strength modifier. But thats not to discount GWM, which has the potential to do more single target damage in other situations. But is roughly the same
It is difficult to say how often you will be able to use your reaction to use the polearm ability. Although I agree it would happen quite often, which is great. Something else to keep in mind that Hex significantly increases the average damage of the polearm master route so these calculations assumes that it is constantly up (otherwise -3.5 average damage).
Additionally as your ability to hit increases so does the damage of GWM, so if you are increasing your chances to hit through gaining advantage or spell buffs you have a greater chance to deal that extra 10 damage and getting in that extra attack with a bonus action. Making for a much more complicated calculation.
It all really of depends on your party make up and the types of encounters you are fighting - and also what you are looking for in a character's aesthetic/ roleplay aspect.
What I would like to suggest in the situation of wanting a big tank with good single target is to consider the Sentinel feat with a two-handed weapon. You still get great damage output with the two handed (average = 12.81) but a superior ability to control the creatures around you and the opportunity to slam a creature if they attack a friendly (increasing damage against target those targets), which can potentially kill a creature and prevent the damage since the reaction happens when it makes an attack and not deals damage- this feat synergizes with both GWM and polearm master if you wanted to take one (or both) of those later
my apologies, upon reflection of this reply it seems I have neglected a few things... I really like your question though. I think this question deserves its own post
DeleteWhat would you consider the best way to level a Paladin 6/Warlock 14? I'm trying to figure out a leveling path that won't leave me too crippled at different levels of play compared to the rest of my party.
ReplyDeleteWhat would you consider the best way to level a Paladin 6/Warlock 14? I'm trying to figure out a leveling path that won't leave me too crippled at different levels of play compared to the rest of my party.
ReplyDeleteThat's a good question DancingWarPanda,
ReplyDeleteThe big power jumps in most classes happen around levels 5, 11, and 20. As a melee class, if you can help it you don't want to miss out on extra attack early on. So what I can suggest is this:
Paladin
level 1 - paladin 1 - Divine Sense, Lay on hands, also good defenses at low levels
Level 2 - paladin 2 - Fighting Style, Spellcasting, Divine Smite
Level 3 - paladin 2/ warlock 1 - Otherworldly Patron, Pact Magic
Level 4 - paladin 2/ warlock 2 - Eldritch Invocations
level 5 - paladin 2/ warlock 3 - Pact boon (choose blade), also switch one of your eldritch invocations to Thirsting Blade, which you now have the prerequisites for.
Level 6 - paladin 2/ warlock 4 - Ability score improvement/feat
level 7 - paladin 3/ warlock 4 - Divine Health, Sacred Oath
level 8 - paladin 4/ warlock 4 - Ability score improvement/feat
level 9 - paladin 5/ warlock 4 - Extra attack
level 10 - paladin 5/ warlock 5 - Switch out of thirsting blade invocation
level 11 - paladin 6/ warlock 5 - Aura of protection
level 12+ - paladin 6/ warlock 6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14
With the above build you generally have an on par power level with other classes, since you're still getting that extra attack at level 5 (through thirsting blade) and your fighting style early on. The weakest level you will have is at level 9 since you will have the Extra attack feature overlap until level 10 when you can switch out of it again, although by now you will have enough resources to use that it won't matter as much. Then at 11th level you get your Aura of Protection, a great ability to fill that level 11 power jump.
hope this helps! let me know if you have anymore questions!
This doesn't look too bad and is at least a counter idea which was level Paladin to 6 first. One of my group members also said Bladesinger 18/Paladin 2 is a good choice. What would you consider the differences are? My mechanical knowledge is limited.
DeleteThis doesn't look too bad and is at least a counter idea which was level Paladin to 6 first. One of my group members also said Bladesinger 18/Paladin 2 is a good choice. What would you consider the differences are? My mechanical knowledge is limited.
DeleteThat is a very interesting idea! Especially if you enjoy casting more powerful spells.
DeleteFor a bladesinger/paladin your looking at more of a one-handed Dex/Int based character than the str/cha based warlock/paladin - so that is something to consider when thinking about skills and saving throws (dex, con, and wis are the highest valued saving throws). It would also give you a much flashier spell-line (wizard spell list and spellbook) and a decent melee presence. By taking Dueling or Defensive for fighting styles and then switching your shield on when your bladesong is down, you can stay relevant in close quarters at low levels. Although you might want to negate your passive melee shortfalls (lower health per level and AC) with spells (false life and shield), when necessary. It's definitely a viable and powerful character idea.
I think you will find at higher levels you will want to engage in melee combat a lot less since your spells will become more valuable than divine smite, which is not necessarily a bad thing - and melee combat will be more of a substitute for spellcasting, or cleaning up single targets. This is partially because the more limited spell slots per day but higher power of wizard spells compared to the high spell slots 'potentially' per day but lower power of the warlock spells.
So lets lay out all the benefits to each combo:
Warlock/Paladin
-melee presence (heavy armor, hp, two-handed weapon)
-spell slot recovery (per short rest)
-warlock class features (invocations, pact boon, patron abilities) and ability synergy with charisma
Bladesinger/paladin
-melee presence (AC boosters, one-hander damage boosters)
-Spell power (spell book, spells per day, wizard spells)
-classes stack for spell slots/level (paladin equals 0.5 and wizard equals 1)
Looking strictly on Divine smite, you can likely do many small divine smites with bladesinger/paladin, because of the increasing number of spells slots per level as you are leveling in wizard. With warlock paladin you will be doing a few really strong divine smites in between short rests.
So if I wanted the version with the highest burst damage/survival would it be the Warlock version then?
DeleteI would argue yes
DeleteGreat write up, thanks!
DeleteOne issue I see in your level advancement breakdown and analysis is at level 5 - paladin 2/ warlock 3. You could not take Thirsting Blade, since it requires level 5 warlock. The prereqs refer to the class level, not the character level. So you're not getting an extra attack until 9th level.
Wait for your aura at level 6 before you switch to Warlock. Those saving throws will make life so much easier. The range will only be 10 feet centered on you, but with a high or maxed out Charisma modifier, you could have anywhere from +3 to +5 to ALL saving throws instead of only Wisdom and Charisma.
ReplyDeleteAlso a Paladin will have an no problem leveling with its healing and survivability compared to casters generally speaking. You will have heavy armor proficiency with Lay on Hands as well as cure wounds if you opt to take it.
Your damage potential won't go up until level 5 though, when you get access to second level spell slots to fuel smiting and extra attack. Extra attack actually gains 2 actions, not just 2 attacks - this will net you 2 smites per turn, with your vow from vengeance oath to attack with advantage to creature per rest. Also a second means you can attack once and then heal or cast a spell which provides more versatility.
A nice offensive gain at level 5 and then defensive at level 6. A durable character with plenty of firepower for when you multiclass.
This is what I was considering. That Aura at level 6 is just so good.
DeleteThis is what I was considering. That Aura at level 6 is just so good.
DeleteThis is an excellent idea, especially if you want that extra tenacity
DeleteWait for your aura at level 6 before you switch to Warlock. Those saving throws will make life so much easier. The range will only be 10 feet centered on you, but with a high or maxed out Charisma modifier, you could have anywhere from +3 to +5 to ALL saving throws instead of only Wisdom and Charisma.
ReplyDeleteAlso a Paladin will have an no problem leveling with its healing and survivability compared to casters generally speaking. You will have heavy armor proficiency with Lay on Hands as well as cure wounds if you opt to take it.
Your damage potential won't go up until level 5 though, when you get access to second level spell slots to fuel smiting and extra attack. Extra attack actually gains 2 actions, not just 2 attacks - this will net you 2 smites per turn, with your vow from vengeance oath to attack with advantage to creature per rest. Also a second means you can attack once and then heal or cast a spell which provides more versatility.
A nice offensive gain at level 5 and then defensive at level 6. A durable character with plenty of firepower for when you multiclass.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI'm trying to make the dex version of this build 11/9 Paladin/Warlock. Vengeance/Fiend
ReplyDeleteHuman Variant - Feat (1 of): Alert,Resilient Con,Mobile, shield master or War Caster (I can't decide, but leaning towards res con)
Str:13, Dex:16, Con:12, Int:10, Wis:10, Cha: 14 Fighting Style - Dueling
Rapier + Shield + Studded
AC should be: 12 +3 +2 = 17
Basically the batman version...stealth Paladin. I figure dueling, plus improved smite should keep my damage close..ish... While having lots of other options...
Warlock Level 9 gives a 5th level spell slot and a 5th invocation and lastly I don't expect this character to play all the way to 20...(may/will take the ASI) 12P/8W - either way I'll have 3 ASI by level character level 12ish x2Dex + 1xCha, I also like Pal6/War14...I was originally thinking more Paladin levels due to my low Con \ Hit Points.
Is this a viable build?
Should I take a negative ability modifier to increase my starting CHA or CON...?
Can you help me level this build to level 20?
Thanks great blog and discussion!
Hello Iwmaxx!
DeleteSorry about the delay! (Canadian thanksgiving)
Interesting build idea - I am going to assume you want to do a human version of this build?
I will go through your questions one by one :)
1) Is this a viable build?
most definitely, both warlock and paladin could technically go with a Dex-based melee approach. Warlock has little to no drawbacks from using a high dex and benefits with certain abilities like Armor of Shadows (no dexterity cap armor). Paladin usually benefit more from strength-based melee (because pure builds usually use heavy armor), but in this case high dex is perfectly fine.
2) Should I take a negative ability modifier to increase my starting CHA or CON?
I would argue that Con is most important in this build, but if you really don't like have negative scores you probably don't need to.
Str:10 Dex:15+1 Con:15+1 Int:10 Wis:10 Cha:11+1 and with the human variant trait, choosing Resilience(Con) - This way you get a full 16 on both con and dex, and res con, if you still wanted that.
Can you help me level this build to level 20?
Sure! - if you suspect you wont go all the way to 20 I would pay more attention to your ability to stay up (above 0hp) at lower levels and see if your doing okay (go with more levels in warlock + dex ASI) or having trouble staying up (more levels in paladin, +con ASI)
lets assume that you go with the 11 paladin/ 9 warlock (with starting stats above) and wanted to be a bit more tanky
1.Paladin 1
2.Paladin 2 - dueling is pretty good here for the rapier+shield
3.Paladin 3 - start taking levels in warlock here if you didn't want the straight 6 levels in paladin
4.Paladin 4 + con
5.Paladin 5
6.Paladin 6 (as suggested by supercod above, for the extra hp/aura/spells/LoH)
7.Paladin 6 / Warlock 1
8.Paladin 6 / Warlock 2
9.Paladin 6 / Warlock 3
10.Paladin 6 / Warlock 4 + Dex
11.Paladin 6 / Warlock 5
12.Paladin 6 / Warlock 6
13.Paladin 6 / Warlock 7
14.Paladin 6 / Warlock 8 + Con
15.Paladin 6 / Warlock 9
16.Paladin 7 / Warlock 9
17.Paladin 8 / Warlock 9 - Con (or Charisma if you find you need better saving throw results at this level)
18.Paladin 9 / Warlock 9
19.Paladin 10 / Warlock 9
20.Paladin 11 / Warlock 9
let me know if you have any more questions!
DeleteI think this should be updated to include the SCAG cantrips, emphasis on Green Flame Blade for this type of build. Since cantrips scale based on character level, it's very possible to have a Paladin 2/Warlock 3 character who hits harder than a Paladin 5 character unless you're burning your spell slots to Divine Smite twice.
ReplyDeleteIt seems obvious but I still feel it's worth pointing out; Extra Attack and Thirsting Blade are entirely redundant, neither of them play nice with the SCAG cantrips either unless you want to Divine Smite twice in a single turn and burn through your spell slots. It's good to have the option to do either I guess but I wouldn't go out of my way to get one if I've got the other.
I would go out of my way for Aura of Protection though even if I'm focusing on the SCAG cantrips so I guess the point is kinda moot seen as you pick up Extra Attack before Aura of Protection.
DeleteHey just so you know thirsting blade requires a level 5 Warlock no level 5 combined.
ReplyDeleteI'm curious how you calculated the damage output for those charts. I tried the calculations myself for Lv8 just to see, trying to consider every single thing to increase damage, and I'm not getting anywhere close to what you put.
ReplyDeleteI just rolled this with the new UA Paladin - Oath of Treachery and warlock Tomb fiend.
ReplyDeleteThey harmonise so well
Shizzlenitts, can you post your character build?
ReplyDeleteIts not a "Corrupted paladin" its called a "Dark Knight", you're welcome...
ReplyDelete"level 5 - paladin 2/ warlock 3 - Pact boon (choose blade), also switch one of your eldritch invocations to Thirsting Blade, which you now have the prerequisites for." - This is not possible since Thristing Blade requires 5 leves of Warlock, not 5 total levels.
ReplyDeleteI’ve read all this over and over throughout the last few years when I decided on it as a hero in the campaign I’m in. Yes this is an old post, but people..this synergy is absolutely disgusting in terms of power, utilities, and cc.
ReplyDeleteAllow me to show you what a round of combat looks like with my level 5/5 (lvl 10), ‘Dark Light’ Paladin Koa can do in an average encounter.
Context:
Koa - Variant Human - Sailor - Vengeance Paladin [VP] /Fiend Patron Warlock [WL] (backstory worked impeccably to meld the dichotomy).
Great weapon Fighting - VP
Pact of the Blade - WL
Feats: Great W. Master, POA, Sentinel.
Invocations: Improved Pact Weapon, Eldritch Smite, Devils Sight (for dark vision obvs).
Weapon: Glaive - 5’ reach.
Str-18
Cha - 16
Con 13
A quick aside:
[in my campaign the DM rewarded Koa with a dark glaive and allowed the intate +1/+1 bonus stack with the improved pack weapon invocation. He also has magic bracers that are +1/+1. These are the only two magic items I’ve ever had in 3 years...but as a lvl 10 character, +3/+3 is still quite strong...totally unnecessary as you’ll see however but I digress]
In this current state, once initiative begins, Koa has a total of 4 attacks per round that are almost guaranteed trigger owing to his feats.
With some simple planning to cast bless in advance Koa is doing 3d10 + 1d4 + 28 PER ROUND and 1’s and 2’s re-roll!..but wait...it get so much better...
All of these attacks (with his 2 magic items) are coming in at a d20 + 1d4 + 11 to hit...roll a 5? Np, at minimum you’ve rolled a 17-20.
This is where great weapon master comes in. Take the -5 and Koa buffs the dmg to + 68 per round while attacking at d20 + 1d4 + 6.
Now it gets really messy...enter or leave Koa’s 10’ reach and the enemy will proc POA and sentinel..with his reaction, on a successful attack Koa can deliver a level 3 Eldritch Smite and a level 3 Divine smite (yes at the same time), to a single target...if it’s fiend or undead...this is what it looks like for just his reaction.
1d10 + 9d8 + 16 magic and divine dmg and the creature is knocked prone (no save), speed is reduced to 0 for the remainder of the round. And Koa still has multiple lvl 1 and lvl 2 pally slots to keep inflicting more dmg.
Does that sound powerful? It Gets better, with VOE up, all these attacks are at advantage. Imagine critting on that reaction?! ALL DMG DICE DOUBLE! The stars aligned damage on Koa right now is past 500 dmg in one round.
he can also cast misty step, fire ball, spider climb etc through being a WL. It’s an absolutely broken build if you have a half a brain and in 2 lvls he gets polymorph!
450 stars aligned dmg*^
Delete